Was it right to punish Vettel?
- Published on Aug 29th, 2010 by Adam Milleneuve
Jenson Button's Belgian Grand Prix weekend ended prematurely after a collision with Sebastian Vettel on lap 18 of 44. The current World Champion was holding 2nd place with a damaged car with Vettel bearing down on him.
Just as drops of rain began to fall again in the Ardane forest, Vettel quickly changed direction and consequently lost control under braking before ploughing into the side of Jenson Button. Vettel made it back to the pits for a new wing as Button caught a lift back to the pit lane.
After the incident, Jenson exclaimed what a hit this was for his championship hopes and how he was just minding his own business before Sebastian came from nowhere to take him out.
It's not the first time Vettel's overtaking skills have come under question this year - after many collisions as well as the massive one in Turkey with his own team mate, Webber. Speaking of which, Vettel really hasn't done himself any favours, with Webber looking to collect yet more points which could lead to Red Bull backing the Aussie for their title challenge.
The question, was it right for Vettel to be penalised for his move on Button? To us here at Badger, it simply looked like he had a go and was caught out by the weather - for which a drive-thru' penalty seems a little harsh...
Let us know what you think about it all in the comments below...
Note, since going to press, Vettel has had another incident while overtaking Liuzzi and suffered from a puncture - not a good day!
It was definitely the right decision to penalise him. He was out of control. It was far worse than Liuzzi clipping him during an overtake, That is a racing incident. Vettel has shown twice now that he is out of control. Perhaps he is related to Kobayashi.
It's simple really, he caused an avoidable accident through over exuberant driving and caused the retirement of another car. Absolutely right to give him a drive through.
He simply cannot pass! Drive throughout defo no question!
IMHO, Vettel drives like an immature kid, who still thinks that F1 is only about driving as fast as he can, with no subtlety whatsoever. His immaturity and relative lack of experience make him dangerous to be with on a track and he needs to be made aware of this, as I understand he may yet find once the stewards have had their deliberations? Personally, if they are able to, I think the stewards should give Vettel at least a further severe penalty, if not a full ban, for the next race - that might give him pause for thought.
Vettel has had too many incidents for it to be bad luck. He does not know how to control his car in tight situations. If he is free and clear in the lead with superior gear, he can win like Damon Hill. Put him in a close fight and he will cause mayhem.
Not punished enough in my opinion, should be a Grid drop next race!
And according to JB the track was dry!
The drive through penalty wasn't enough. Vettel should have additional penalties. He accelerated when there was a car close in front of him, when they are too close to the bend. He should have pulled out early and overtook long before the bend. He was clearly frustrated in being held up, and that's when he is dangerous. Jenson could have been severely hurt being smashed on the side of the car where he is not protected by the wheels and wings.
It was a schoolboy error by Vettel, he should have known that Button would defend his line and that extra precautions were needed in that weather. It was like he just wasn't thinking. The drive thru penalty only cost him 2 places which was definitely not proportionate to the crime in my opinion... he made it up quick enough only to be caught out by further schoolboy errors later in the race!
he is driving like it were pc or x box game ... this might lead to some serioues consequeses in the future !!! sebastian should be suspended for a minimum of 2 races to understand what he is doing !!!
he has done it last year and is doinf it this year even worse !!! 3 colissions in one race ...when enough is enough ??????????????
Last season Vettel made a series of errors that affected his championship challenge. You could put that down to inexperience. This year he has made a series of errors that have affected other drivers' championship challenges. Still inexperience, or is it arrogance? I know what I think...
And btw it's spelt Ardennes ;0)
The little arogant shit should be banned from driving. If he is suicidal, he should not be allowed to put at risk other direvers' lives.
Sebastian is still learning, and he made a mistake. He was penalised already by the fact he had to make a stop to change his nose. The drive-thru would have reinforced the message of that is not acceptable.
As an insurance claims handler, I do struggle with the term "causing an avoidable accident". All accidents are avoidable whether by braking earlier, leaving more gap between the cars or by taking a different line, but obviously these things wouldn't make a good race! If we penalised drivers for every "avoidable" accident, almost every car would get a drive-thru in most races! I'd more like the alternatives of either causing a serious accident or causing a dangerous incident (see Schumacher last race!)
Not all accidents are avoidable, for example if something in the car fails, not enough grip in a corner, etc...
Barrichello didn't get penalised for hitting Alonso. Webber didn't get penalised for crashing into Hamilton in Australia and Kovalainen in Europe. Vettel didn't get penalised for Turkey. To go even further back, Raikkonen didn't get penalised for taking out Sutil in Monaco 08. The stewards' inconsistency is almost as upsetting as Vettel's.
Ino,
It's perfectly correct and proper that the stewards judge each case on its specific merits and penalize accordingly. When Barrichello hit Alonso, he was skidding on all four wheels due to the conditions at the time, so not really able to avoid the collision, plus he wasn't attempting to overtake Alonso anyway. When Webber hit Hamilton in Oz, Hamliton was arguably ruled to have been partly responsible - and maybe the stewards considered what happened to Webber was punishment enough too! I don't recall the Webber-Kovaleinen incident you refer to. As for Vettel/Webber in Turkey, I'm quite sure that the stewards rightly considered that both the drivers and the team had effectively penalised themselves.
So, not all cases are the same and, IMHO, it's quite right of the stewards to be 'inconsistent' (as you call it) or 'discerning' (as I would call it). In the case of Vettel vs Button yesterday, it was clear to almost everyone that the incident was wholly due to Vettel's own bad judgement and deliberate manoeuvre in attempting to pass. In doing so, he lost control of his car entirely through his own actions; at that place and time, he was on a dry track, so weather was not the cause. It seems he knew that (or was persuaded to acknowledge the truth), as he subsequently made an unreserved apology to Button for the incident, accepting full responsibility for what happened.
Webber-Kovaleinen - In Valencia when Heiki braked a bit earlier then Mark would have braked, and Mark ended up running into the back of Heiki and flipping his car upside down! One of those moments that you wonder how the driver survived! In that situation, Mark should have know the Lotus would have been slower, and braked earlier as a result so should have been prepared to either brake earlier himself or move to one side to pass. Having said that it did look slightly like Heiki moved a couple of times himself. It was avoidable by both drivers been a little more careful, but as both drivers were penalised by exiting the race, and one was lucky to have no injuries at all (shocking for a car that has flipped) the stewards saw no need to penalise Mark. IMHO if they were to treat this in the same way as Vettel Button, Mark would probably get a grid penalty, but for a guy that was lucky to be on the next grid, I think that could have been classed as kicking a guy when he's down! So for these 'Inconsistancies', I would say a judgement call is made on each incident, as it very well should be.
If, say, Lucas di Grassi had done the same thing to, say, Jarno Trulli, would Lucas have received a drive through?
If all the circumstances were the same, then sure - why would it be otherwise?
Vettei is a cock.
Firstly, I find it bizarre that Vettel was punished for this incident, when at the point of contact with Button he had lost control of his car, but not in Turkey, when at the point of contact with Webber he was in full control and turned into Webber. Both accidents were Vettel's fault, but one was caused by him turning into another car, and the other by him turning away from the other car but losing control. Why this is the incident that was punished I cannot understand, but then who can understand steward decisions?
On the wider point, I don't like seeing incidents like this punished, because it doesn't encourage overtaking, and that's the last thing F1 needs. I know we want to see less clumsy overtaking than Vettel's attempt this weekend, but more overtaking will inevitably bring about more contact, and while we don't want to see any drivers get hurt, if we want more overtaking then we have to accept more incidents like this, just as there were more incidents like this 20+ years ago when overtaking was more common. There will be some occasions where you have no choice but to punish a driver, but in borderline cases, which is a category the Vettel-Button incident probably falls into, I think it is better to err on the side of no punishment for the sake of better racing.
That's a very good point, Andrew.
In turkey he was already out of the race! who were they supposed to punish?
Not all punishments have to be given out during the race. A grid-drop for the next race could have been given, such as Vettel received after his incident with Kubica at Australia last year.
I think that the fact that Vettel made swift move into the pit lane and minimized his downtime was a factor for the stewards. Had he not been penalized he might have finished 5th or better. I know that the action itself should be judged, rather than the incidental consequences ( zero points for Button), but I imagine that this might have crossed Nigel's mind. Otherwise I cannot see him regarding this as anything other than a racing incident.
David B
Hmmm, sorry, but I don't agree at all with what Andrew has said! And I particularly take exception to his assertion that "there were more incidents like this 20+ years ago when overtaking was more common." Not in my memory they weren't! The likes of Prost, Senna, Mansell and many of their contemporaries simply didn't collide with cars they were overtaking, in my memory. OK, we must allow that the cars they drove were also very different - and in many ways more 'controllable' than today's hyper-sensitive and critically balanced set-ups - but even after allowing for that, I still think Vettel's standards of driving and decision making fall way short of the standards of 20+ years ago, as well as miserably short of the best standards amongst the current driver line-up. And I have to say, it really wouldn't surprise me if Vettel isn't driving for Red Bull next year (unless it's too expensive for Christian to break his contract, of course).
I would say that what Senna did at Suzuka 20 years ago was a lot worse than anything Vettel's done.
Sorry Nigel, but I must take exception to your taking exception with my assertion!
The likes of Prost, Senna, Mansell didn’t collide with cars they were overtaking? Prost and Senna colliding at Suzuka alone was in danger of becoming an annual event, whilst Mansell famously ignored a black flag in Estoril in '89 and went on to take out Senna. And these are just their most famous incidents, certainly not their only ones.
I don't have the figures to prove there were more incidents in the past, but as you say that there were not more incidents like this in your memory I am presuming you don't have the figures to prove there weren't either. Unless someone does have the figures to prove whether or not the number of accidents have changed I guess we should agree to disagree on that point.
To continue our not agreeing at all with each other, I think that to stay Vettel falls way short of the standards of 20+ years ago is harsh, and a case of looking at the past through rose-tinted spectacles. But for mechanical problems would have been top with 75 points after three races, and I think he is pushing too hard in an attempt to make up for those points, and making stupid mistakes as a result. It's not an excuse - he needs to do better, no question - but he is still young. If he is still doing this in a few years then it's a serious problem, but there is no way Red Bull are going to give up on him yet.
Remember kids, every time you buy a Red Bull, you fund this man'a reign of terror
I agree with bits of what both Andrew and Nigel have said!
I do think he should have been punished as it's up to a driver to assess the conditions and drive accordingly. Whilst theer will inevitably be collisions, it just seemed that whatever Vettel was trying at that corner, it was never going to work. There was no room on the right, and to go around the outside, would just not have been possible with the space available. Therefore, he made an avoidable mistake by going for it in the first place.
Vettel seems to suffer from 'red mist' when things aren't going his way, in a manner which Webber doesn't - hence the championship positions. He was lucky to get away without a punishment for his pass on Sutil, althouhg getting the puncture probabaly saved him.
It's true to say that in the past, some of Senna's moves were less than savoury, in cars that we inherently less safe.
I thought overall the stewards called it about right in very difficult and changeable conditions, unlike in 2008 when the punishment of a certain MR Hamilton, didn't match the crime...
Look at the video closely. Vettel was blocked to the right , then to the left. Both very brief and very subtle, but very real. That's why he locked up and lost control. Button should have been penalized (blocking twice is illegal), not Vettel.
It seems every time Vettel does something wrong it is always the other person's fault. Strange that...
By definition, if anyone does something "wrong" it is their fault. But in this case, the video clearly shows that Vettel tried to pass on one side, was blocked by Button, then tried to pass on the other side (already being committed to passing speed), only to be blocked again. When he attempted to avoid a collision after being blocked for the second time his tires could take no more and lost adhesion. You can argue the Vettel should have expected Button to behave in that matter, but not that he didn't block twice, and not that that is not illegal according to the Sporting Regs.
Just watched it 5 or 6 times, still not convinced. It certainly doesn't *clearly* show anything, but maybe I'm watching the wrong angle.
As for my point Vettel crashes into Webber whilst attempting an overtake, it's Webber's fault, Vettel crashes into Button whilst attempting an overtake, it's Button's fault...
To my eyes, there was a clear, although subtle (which was all that was needed), movement in both directions by Button, in an attempt to keep Vettel from trying to pass. Vettel had to make a split-second decision each time to keep from crashing, and he made the correct decision each time. His tires' grip simply could not keep up with the demands that Vettel asked of them, which Button had forced.
As for Vettel vs. Webber, I have never commented on that. It looked to me like Webber gave Vettel absolutely no room, and then Vettel moved over into him in an attempt to have enough radius to make the corner. Vettel's fault for running into him. But at that point, Webber was going to get run into anyway unless he moved over enough to let Vettel make the next corner. So, although it was Vettel's fault for running into Webber, Webber insured that a collision would take place. Especially as they are on the same team, it was not a good decision.
So subtle that none of the stewards saw it despite having video evidence from multiple angles.
Fair enough...
Thought you'd end up blaming Webber as well. Point made.
Subtle, but obvious enough if you are looking for it. I have shown the replay to several people who at first swore the crash was obviously Vettel's fault. They were all big enough to say they were wrong, and that it was indeed obviously Buttons fault after viewing the video evidence.
I didn't blame Webber. I clearly stated that It was Vettel's fault for running into Webber. But I also made the point that once Webber made the decision not to give Vettel any room, it was a fait accompli that there would be a collision.
Can you post the video somewhere over the 'net? It would be interesting to see.