Let them race, or take the points?
by Craig Normansell with others, on Jul 13th, 2011The Scrutineering Bay is Badger's way of taking a hot Grand Prix racing topic and getting people from the Sett involved to put their opinions across. From predicting races, arguing stewards decisions to just deciding who was/is/will be the best, anything is fair game!
Team orders. The white elephant in the F1 room that everyone knows exists, but don't really want to talk about it. Mainly because it brings up bad memories, but ultimately, because they stop racing drivers from doing the one thing they are in the car to do; race. So, this week on the Scrutineering Bay, we're asking;
"Should Red Bull have let their drivers race at Silverstone?"
This weeks Badger participants are myself, Craig Normansell, Jimmy Von Weeks and going first, Adam Millenueve:
No one wants to see a 'fixed' result - yes from a team perspective, RBR did the right thing for points, but it comes at a high price with regard to fan-loyalty and the reputation and image of the sport. What Red Bull did at Silverstone wasn't too bad, i.e. drivers weren't told to swap positions a la Barrichello/Schumacher, but from a fan perspective it's still a bit rubbish.
From the fans' point of view it would have been great to see Webber stick it up the inside as Hamilton did on Massa and well, with Vettel being so far in the lead of the title race he would have most likely fought back or, more likely, for the sake of three points jumped out of the way to avoid coming away with no points.
It comes across as Red Bull not trusting drivers to be able to overtake and I agree with Mark's comments that if Alonso had say, had an engine failure on the last lap, he could have been battling for victory (also, judging by the fans in the stands, more would like to see Webber come out on top)
I'm going to take the fans' stance on this one and say yes, Red Bull should have allowed their drivers to race and without wanting to stir too much, had it been Vettel chasing Webber there may have been a slightly different radio call...
Up next is Jimmy;
To my mind there is nothing wrong with team orders in Formula One: it is, after all, a team sport. From that perspective there's no problem with asking your drivers to hold station in the final few laps of a grand prix. It's common sense: why risk a big points score when there's nothing to play for, team-wise? To entertain the fans? That's not their job.
But arguably you can slate Red Bull for it, because they have - as part of their marketing and PR statergy, I believe, rather than out of any moral conviction - always claimed that they do not employ team orders. They have presented themselves as pure racers who do things differently from the likes of Ferrari; they made it part of their corporate branding.
When they admit that they - like every Formula One team - care more about winning than anything else I won't mind their use of team orders; they've always been part of the sport.
But it's time to stop with all the PR-speak about going racing a different way - Red Bull are no different to any other team in the paddock.
And lastly, it's my turn;
I had an issue watching the Red Bulls scrap on Sunday - for a lap or two at least - and that was the one thing I think Mark Webber had in his mind too; if it was the other way around, would Seb be told the same order?
It's two British Grand Prix now where Christian Horner has made bad decisions. Last year it all focused around the taking of the improved front wing from Mark's car to Seb's, which ultimately stoked the Aussie up to deliver on race day. This year, it was asking Mark to hold station when clearly he was faster. But, why make the order? Wouldn't it have been simpler to ask Seb to move instead and let Mark set some fast times in catching Fernando Alonso? On fresher tyres, who knows what sort of pace Webber could've achieved.
The sorry state of affairs is that Horner does not have the guts to make an order along the lines of "Sebastian, Mark is faster than you. Do you understand?". He is the puppet of the Red Bull big wigs and unfortunately, that's the way I see it.
There's three of Badger's writers and their opinions on the Red Bull team orders, and as always, we'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter. Why not leave a comment below?
Comments and Discussion
I think, actually, I /know/ (because he said so), that Webber ignored the team orders. So whether or not the team let them, the drivers did race.
Then there's also the fact that we only knew about the team orders because we heard it on the TV. If we hadn't have heard that (delayed) radio, how would the race have seemed? Webber making a good (albeit failed) attempt to get past Vettel. Exciting! That doesn't make the team orders okay, but surely it should make us question any other "easing off" by drivers towards the end of the race which may have been ~encouraged by their team, and whathaveyou.
Do I think Red Bull "should have let their drivers race"? Of course. And that's what they did. They showed that they can race without crashing into each other. Which is why I think that Red Bull didn't need to pull team orders.
I think they should have been able to race, the interview with Christian Horner on the BBC after the race made it sound like if webber had tryed to overtake vettel they would have crashed into each other, webber managed a number of overtakes earlier in the race without crashing why would this overtake been any different. webber should ditch red bull next year they treat him like a second class driver when its obvious he's not. The way they put him second all the time last year and this has really turned me against red bull.
I can understand that they'd not want to risk a coming together at the end of a grand prix. But I really can't imagine that RB would have said the same thing if Vettel had been behind.
Personally I think they just wanted to make sure Vettel got as many points as possible die to Alonso winning.
I think for Red Bull they are learning that people remember quotes rather better than they hoped. If you are going to let them race do or don't but tell everyone you have changed your mind.
They said they didn't like Ferrari doing similar and then tried to do similar albeit not as bad, but got caught out.
It is a different subject but similar vein, they were going on about Ferrari everyone moaning about the flexing wing and going to the stewards but as soon as the engine rules were changed who was moaning then.
You can't have it both ways!
I think FOM made some bad decisions this weekend with regards to broadcasting radio messages, particularly the one by McLaren to Jenson about leaping Red Bull in the pits. This was another one of those occasions, especially as Webber ignored the orders. As it is, however, the message did get broadcast. If it had not been, who knows what the Webber/Red Bull situation would be like? Probably things would have become public anyway, but I think perhaps the Red Bull/Webber situation is worse than it would have been without the broadcast.
But while I would blame FOM for some of the resulting fallout, Red Bull still made a mistake. With Seb and the team having such a huge lead, they could have afforded a crash if it had happened. Mark was willingly risking his position in the championship, and he knew if Seb crashed he would stay far out in the lead (but slightly more reachable). And who knows - maybe if the team hadn't been distracting Mark through the radio he'd have overtaken Seb and got second!
All the teams can use team orders, and how they wish; Red Bull being no different. However (and I've not seen any of the interviews after the race to know what was said), if they're still proclaiming Webber and Vettel are equal drivers, then that's not much better than Ferarri's attitude in Germany last year, when everyone who watched the race saw one thing and then was told something different.
Who knows, Webber has a reputation as a straight talker, he may appreciate being in an environment where he knows where he stands, as it doesn't look like there's much trust on that side of the garage right now. Although it's looking more and more likely he'll be out of the team by mutual consent next year.
This strikes me as a case for ground rules. If the team explain to the drivers before hand that come the last 5 laps of a race they will be told to hold position in scenarios like this, it doesn't get blown out of proportion. Most of the time in F1 the last 10 laps have been the fuel save stint where everyone just drives to the flag anyway, not so much this year with the tyres but still... And would this be getting talked about if it was vettel behind being told the same thing? I doubt it. (not least because most would assume the order in that case to be "get out of the way Mark, you are holding wonder boy up"). Like it or not, it is the safest thing for RBR to do at that point, and most teams would do it, let your drivers race for a bit then say 'enough, bring them home safe' as while they won't expect their drivers to crash how stupid would they look if they did (again, in RBR's case). Measured risk, they'd still order it even if there were rules against it, just in a coded message or before the race, so it makes little difference as far as I'm concerned.
Imagine you put some money on Webber or any driver for that matter to win or place in the race, imagine it was a lot of money. Now it doesn’t take a big stretch of imagination to see that a well timed radio message could be seen to be affecting the outcome of the race. Both Football and Cricket have come under a lot of pressure from outside the sport to clean up their acts, do we want the same thing in F1?
I personally think that if Christian was that bothered about making sure neither of the cars ended up in the gravel, and given the rate that Mark was catching Seb, then it should have been Seb who was told to pull over. Why does it only seem to be me that has thought of this? However, this clearly wouldn't fall in line with Red Bull's team strategy of "Seb first this time, Seb first every time."
Don't worry Max, I'm in the same boat as you! The fact that Seb wasn't asked to make way for his faster teammate rankles me too. The points were sowed up as Hamilton was slowing Massa up, so why not set Mark after Fernando to try and rattle him?
Hindsight is a wonderful thing in Horner's case. What odds for a hat-trick of poor decisions at Britain 2012?
"Most of the time in F1 the last 10 laps have been the fuel save stint where everyone just drives to the flag anyway"
Huh? Most of the past 10 years, refueling has been allowed. There wasn't the concern of running out of fuel as there is these past couple years. With refueling allowed, you can afford to give a bit extra fuel on the final stint to make sure the car makes it home because it doesn't cost as you as much time as it does having that extra bit of fuel for an entire race like the past couple years. No doubt there's been a few instances of teams playing it a little too close when it came to refueling for the last stint, but it was not standard practice to short fill them and expect them to conserve fuel.
And what I don't understand is why people are saying "What Red Bull did isn't as bad as what Ferrari did."
The intent is EXACTLY the same - to dictate the finishing order of the race (usually to maximize championship points hauls). How it is executed shouldn't really matter. In fact, when it comes to one driver being told to let his teammate by, I'd rather have a driver blatantly pull aside for the other driver and make it clear as day instead of treating the fans like idiots and trying to hide it from us when we all know exactly what is going on. And in regards to RBR telling Mark not to pass Seb, the intent and outcome is exactly the same as I said. In either situation, they're telling the drivers not to race each other. In both cases they're dictating the finishing order.
(And for what it's worth, I have absolutely no problem with team orders. It is a team sport after all. Team orders have also existed since the beginning - and while that doesn't necessarily make something OK - if you have such a big problem with team orders in F1, maybe you should find a different form of motorsports to follow because team orders are a big part of F1, and always will be as long as it is a team sport.
My stance is simple. Sunday confirmed that Christian Horner thinks exactly the same as a large portion of us: Sebastian Vettel can't race wheel to wheel without crashing.
We've seen Webber do it lots of times, indeed his poor starts have called for it on many an occassion. But the World Champion is a great unknown in this area and it speaks volumes that even his boss has no faith in his abilities to avoid a collision in such a situation.
+1
It was obvious Red Bull weren't just concerned about the points, because they could have ordered Vettel to let Webber past and they would have taken home the same points. It's not exactly as though Vettel needs the points...