One of the greats?
by Craig Normansell with others, on Sep 21st, 2011Welcome to Badger's home of debate, the Scrutineering Bay. Over the past few week's we've been putting the power into the hands of YOU, the fans, and this week is no different as we look at the 2010 World Champion - and 2011 runaway points leader - and ask;
"Is Sebastian Vettel becoming one of the greats?"
We've been getting your answers from emails and Twitter this week, so look out for your opinion!
Our first Scrutineer comes from as far away as South America, and has plenty to say on the matter;
Vettel, could he be considered amongst the truly great ones? In short, no.
Before I get Red Bull cans thrown at me let me explain why. Sure he is ludicrously fast, but so would 3 or 4 other drivers from this generation were they in that same car. As someone once put it, he's like a gazelle on PCP - insanely fast is he's in front, but if he's not he'll also fight like a gazelle (i.e. n0 resistance). Don't let last race's overtaking-over-the-grass thing fool you, there're also a million other times when he just couldn't handle the pressure and ended up spinning, crashing, or worst yet crashing into someone else (Turkey 2010 anyone? Australia 2009 maybe?).
So no, he's not one of the greatest, and by greatest I'm talking about Senna, Fangio, Hill, even Alonso. He's just an excellent sprinter, but with the resistance of a sprinter. I'm sorry, but in GP history, there've been far better sprinters (look for a certain Schumacher...no, not that one, the other one!).
Lastly, to be one of the greats you need a special feature, like a huge moustache or something, and he looks like a little boy, and no, the finger thing is not enough, that's just annoying. Cheers from Chile! - Daniel Chirino, also on Twitter @Chiriplock.
Speaking of Twitter, there were some responses we received;
@graemefowler he won't be considered a "great" until a generation after he retires. Meaning he won't even be 50 years old...
@asif_hossain yes!! He is youngest double world champion.. and I guess he is in the same league of Schumacher and Senna!
@joelfothegill Well he's definitely a great bloke, really nice when I met him! See my profile pic!
Ace pic!
The next fan to have their say is...(drumroll)...James Connor, who establishes the World Champion's pro's and con's in the form of an organised list;
He has improved massively on 2010 when he still managed to win the championship.
In 2010;
- Made some really bad errors, ie smashing into Button at Spa and obviously his clash with Mark Webber in Turkey.
- Would also act childishly, like after his deserved penalty in Hungary, and lacked maturity.However at the end of 2010, he drove the perfect final 4 races and took the championship.
This year I've gained huge respect for him because;
- He can now overtake,as we saw at Spa and Monza with stunning moves on Nico and Fernando.
- He's consistently turning poles into wins.
- He's a lot more mature.
- He's cut out the silly errors from last year and has been utterly dominant.He is now the complete driver in my opinion, and could become the greatest if he keeps getting great cars in years to come.
All fair points!
Our final contributor is friend of Badger GP, Geoff Collins. Many keen fans may remember Geoff being our special guest at our Brazilian Bash at end of last season, while even keener F1 fans will know he used to be Social Media Manager at Marussia Virgin Racing!
I'll admit I was intrigued by the Badgers' latest question: "Does Vettel already belong to the Greats of Formula One?"
When you're as pedantic as I am though, the first thing to do is to define what "Great" means. Is there, for example, generally at least one Great in action at any given time, or should they be ranked like eternal Olympians, and only three can ever count as being truly Great?
It's acknowledged that it's impossible to compare drivers from different eras on an objective basis. So here's my first pass of my own personal list of the best drivers from each of the seven F1 decades. There's no consistency as to whether a driver is listed in the decade they started or finished their career, but that's half the fun.
1950s Fangio, Moss
1960s Clark, Stewart
1970s Fittipaldi, Lauda
1980s Piquet, Prost Senna
1990s Schumacher
2000s Alonso
2010s VettelNote that the list doesn't include drivers that have one more than one title. Graham Hill, for example never dominated the championship, and while you could never say he was lucky, Jim Clark was clearly the man to beat in both the years when Mr Monaco (as Graham Hill was known; he is definitely a Monaco Great) won the championship.
Jack Brabham too, doesn't make the list, despite winning three championships. He simply spent too much time tinkering and building his cars and I can't imagine that Moss wouldn't have beaten him in similar equipment. Häkkinen was perhaps the hardest to leave out, but somehow, I never felt he was "better" than Schumacher - fairer yes, but not better. Ascari? A double world champion and stood on the podium in over half of the races he started. But it was that strange Formula 2 era, and I simply can't rate him as highly as Fangio.
So then, Sebastian? Where does he rank?. For me he is the Jim Clark to Webber's Graham Hill. Somehow you know he is going to be just that bit quicker and make fewer mistakes. He's already definitely in the top ten – I could leave out Alonso and either Fittipaldi or Piquet. But he's not quite ready to break into my top three yet.
And who would my top three be? In alphabetical order: Clark, Fangio, Senna and Stewart.
You're thinking that's four? That's because we not only have to define "Great", we also have to define "three"! For an explanation of "Option Base Zero" see http://vb.mvps.org/hardcore/html/optionbasezero-basedarrays.htm.
So who's in your top "three"?
You can also follow Geoff on Twitter (@GeoffCollinsF1) and check out his blog (The Starting Grid - well worth a read!
So, there we have it. Three different perspectives on whether or not Sebastian Vettel can be considered one of the greatest F1 drivers. But, more importantly, what do you think?
Comments and Discussion
Daniel Chirino - legend. totally agree. you can't be a great without a huge Mansell 'tache, Fittipaldi burns or Prost conk!
Great comments all, particularly enjoyed Geoff Collins' for the contextualising. Gotta say the first two entries both highlighted my thing with Vettel - this year he's been incredibly fast, consistent, and a massively improved driver over last year, and he's been able to extract the best from a superb car in a way Webber hasn't. However, it's the car that's the contentious point here - this year's Red Bull is far and away the class of the field, and whilst Vettel's been incredible behind the wheel of it, it's still an advantage none of the other arguable greats racing today have. So, for my two pence - this year, he's gone up in my estimation massively, but I don't consider him a great yet.
I think when we look back in 50 years time at the F1 of today, we won't consider him a great. When we look back, we'll remember Lewis Hamilton's remarkable rookie year and then taking the championship a year later on the last lap, or we'll remember Jenson and Brawn for their incredible rise from the ashes.
For me, Sebastian has never put in a drive that makes you go 'WOW OMG!!!!!!' - fair enough, he's been very fast, but like the first person said, he's always been up front - he's never had a bad car, and he has shown when put under pressure that he cracks like a window being hit with a sledge hammer - Canada this year for instance, and I think it will be a case of Red Bull will be considered more of a great than he is.
Another point is if you look at the greats, they all have big personalities, and Sebastian doesn't - he is genuine, lovely guy, and has a good sense of humor, but he always says what he is told, never what he feels, and I don't like to see that. People like Lewis Hamilton particularly, aren't afraid to stand up for what they believe in and say what they feel, rather than what they are told; and even though he might sometimes come across as a bit arrogant, Fernando Alonso's personality is a large part of what makes him so great too, and in fifty years, we will look at them and remember them vibrantly - Sebastian Vettel, not so much.
not sure this question will even be able to be asked for another ten or fifteen years. you can't judge a driver who has only done a few years in f1. people would have raved about villeneuve (jacques of course) after he had 2 amazing years but where did he end up??? on the scrapheap! you never know how he'll develop as a driver and as a person so it's best to wait and see.
Thanks for the feature on my Birthday as well! Great present this. Sadly that hand/finger in the picture is not his - he refused to do it as (and I quote) 'I have to save them'!
There is no doubt Vettel will be one of the greats. He is the fastest driver over one lap in the current field and probably the fastest since Senna. He's not the best overtaker but if he is taking pole position and pulling away from the rest of the field, does he need to be? Plus, he's always beaten his team mate in the seasons he has competed in. Webber has only finished ahead of Vettel in one race this year (the German GP). Anyone who has dominated a season like this will always go down as a true Formula 1 great.